Read the last three chapters of Persuasion and the alternate ending in Appendix A.
Post the class exercises here (questions and answers both).
Leftover halloween candy:
This is the movie I was talking about today.
This is an interesting New York Times article on an archaeological discovery that sheds light on the historical origins of the Mediterranean concept of the soul.
This is an article that reflects on Descartes' legacy and its relevance to contemporary U.S politics.
And now, I'm off to persuade my connexions that they should help me accomplish an independence.
15 comments:
Group: Kiyomi and Christine
Question:Produce a Justification that Austin is not an Aristotelian.
Aristotle says being self-sufficient is independence. Austin believes that financial security is independence.
As an example, Anne refuses to marry Wentworth when he first purposes to her because he cannot financially support her. "Captain Wentworth had no fortune. He had been lucky in his profession, but spending freely, what had come freely, had realized nothing" (66).
Another justification that Austin is not an Aristotelian is that she allows Anne to be pushed around by everyone. Aristotle believes you act in the most virtuous way possible but you have to find an intermediate to act in. Anne helps people whenever she is asked but she is always pushed around. She needs to stand up for herself and find a medium to act in.
"She was persuaded to believe the engagement a wrong thing ..." (67).
"Anne had never submitted more reluctantly to the jealous and ill-judging claims of Mary ..." (142)
Group: Hannah, Ariana, and Shae
Question: Develop a comparison between Pride and Prejudice and Persuasion.
Answer:
In both there are the gold- digging villians male and female in the female category there is Elizabeth Elliot (Per) and then Caroline Bingley (P&P).
There are the silly sisters Henrietta and Lousia (Per) and Lydia and Kitty (P&P).
There are the silly moms Mrs. Musgrove (Per) and Mrs. Bennet (P&P) (obviously one is more silly than the other).
Both fathers from each novel favor the daughter that is in their image.
There is the authoritative figure who really isn't listened to- Lady Russell and Lady Catherine.
The plot is slightly different, in Pride and Prejudice the lovers had no past history whereas in Persuasion the lovers had a past that was later rekindled.
The two main men are totally different in character (Darcy and Wentworth) and the two main women are different as well (Elizabeth and Anne).
In each novel there is a crisis that brings everyone together in Persuasion there is Lousias unfortunate accident. And in Pride and Prejudice there is Lydia running away.
One major signifcant difference is that Anne in Persuasion has no "Jane" so to speak as Elizabeth Bennet has in Pride and Prejudice. Anne has noone to seek comfort in. This is some of what we discovered from the two books:}:}
Group: Monique, Ivan, Rose
Question: What are three passages you think are very important and haven't been addressed yet or would like to go into more detail in? themes? points?
Answer 1 of 3:
I'm answering this question with a question. Would people in Austen's time think that Persuasion was a good book?
We don't have a specific passage for this but, the overall irony that runs through the book was one that we thought should be discussed more. Specifically the idea that Anne (although "inferior" compared to her older sister) manages to have nearly four suitors, while her sister Elizabeth has been left out of any potential marriages altogether. Austen may have done this on purpose however it feels counterintuitive of the times.
Elizabeth "had succeeded ,at sixteen, to all that was possible, of her mother's rights and consequence; and being very handsome...her influence had always been great" (pg. 48). This description places Elizabeth with the best of society. Though flawed in character, she is one too marry well considering the motives for marriage at that time.
Anne whose "bloom had vanished" draws men in with her character, her "elegance of mind and sweetness". Although this is a noble way of falling in love (without any regard to money or title), I guess I just doubt the perceptiveness of a society that was highly superficial in that time. Maybe high classes didn't read Austen.
Group: Hannah, Ariana, and Shae
Question: Develop a comparison between Pride and Prejudice and Persuasion.
I think one think, to add to what Shae said, is that it is important to see that the heroine in both novels is deceived! By a man, "Mr. Elliot" and "Mr. Wickham" in P and P. Both men are able to deceive both relatively smart women, although Anne is older and more knowledgeable from experience, because they have all the appearance of goodness, they are attractive because they are good looking and nice! But it is apparent in both novels that nice is different from good!
Question: Pick three passages that deserve a more detailed examination with qeustions to go along with it.
Answer 1 of 3:
For one passge we chose to discuss Mary Musgrove. Suprisingly we have not talked about her til the more recent lecture, and we though it would be interesting to compare her "flip-flopping".
For example on page 142, Mary demands to stay in Lyme instead of Anne to look after Lousia, where on page 91, Mary had perviously refused to stay back and look after her own son who had borken his collar bone in favor of a dinner party! Marys reactions are backwards in both of these occasions. Lousia and her son have thier needs,but Mary has her own persuasions to for her self-centeredness.
Group: Leah, Stephanie and Florence:
Question: Describe the role of the word "connexions" in the novel.
Answer:
"Connexions" in Jane Austen refers to the relations between families created for financial or social gain. In some respects, Austen refers to connexions as bad things like when being associated with a less socially acceptable family. In most cases, however, connexions are made through marriages in order to climb the social ladder by blending families of different status together. In her description of Anne's relationship with Capt. Wentworth, she writes, "Anne Elliot, with all her claims of birth, beauty, and mind, to throw herself away at nineteen; involve herself at nineteen in an engagement with a young man, who had nothing but himself to recommend him, and no hopes of attaining affluence, but in the chances of a most uncertain profession, and no connexions to secure even his farther rise in that profession..." (p66) Part of Wentworth's worth (no pun intended) is based on his ability to earn money and a name for himself, and according to the society Austen sets up for us, he cannot do any of this without the help of connexions.
We also concluded by Jane Austen's use of both the words "connexion" and "connection" in the same context that though these words are the same, the mingling of both spellings could (intentionally or not) represent the blending of an old and new society as the spelling with the 'x' is considered older and more formal than the 'ct' spelling.
Group: Jeffery, Rosemary, Jie
Question: What is the role of setting within the novel? Does it play any significance?
Answer: The setting mirrors the actions of the characters. Emotions, turmoil, and relationships are all represented by the winter season. As everything slowly progresses towards the spring where everything begins to bloom, so does the lives of the characters. From the deathly hollows of their hearts blooms the love and happiness, which parallels winter and spring.
Stephanie & Leah...
I often get asked by students how to tell the difference between interpretation and over-interpretation. I'm going to take your theory very seriously here for a minute, but let it be said first that it's creative and it shows that you're thinking in the kinds of ways that will serve you well in college humanities classes. If, say, you wrote a paper with this as the thesis, it would probably be a successful college paper.
Now, as to whether or not the thesis is actually true.
At this point, we need to consider the two spellings idea a promising hypothesis, but one lacking sufficient evidence. We would need to check:
-If the edition we're reading is completely accurate with Austen's spelling
-If the two spellings appear to be used strategically, for two different connotations, in the book
-How she spells the word in her other published work and her personal correspondence.
-How others used the word around this same time period.
You are right to point out that the word undergoes a spelling change and that we catch it midway through this change in Persuasion. However, the null hypothesis would be that the word was spelled in two ways, somewhat randomly and inconsistently, over a certain time period. Or that Austen in particular accidentally uses inconsistent spelling on occasion.
At the very least, we can see the two spellings as a kind of metaphor for the changes in society we discussed; certainly we see "connexions," "persuasion," "independence," and other words in the novel undergoing shifts in meaning, and that Austen is aware of these shifts and deliberately commenting on them.
Group: Hannah, Ariana, and Shae
Question: Develop a comparison between Pride and Prejudice and Persuasion.
I feel that Shae and Hannah have pretty much covered comparing the main characters of the two novels. So I will focus on the other aspects of our discussion...
Theme:
The titles of the novels are deeply interwoven into the novels, and are demonstrated through the characters, through personalities, thoughts, actions, and even through their dialogue. Persuasion seems to have a deeper connection with its title than PP. Both novels feature similar themes, which include a lack of security in their families' estates and social standings.
Setting/Plot:
Anne and Elizabeth (PP) face similar challenges regarding social class and the ridiculous family members they have to deal. However, there are major differences in age (Anne (27), Elizabeth (20)) and therefore a differences in wisdom and eligibility. Anne is the daughter of a Baronet and marries beneath her (Wentworth being a man of wealth through merit rather than through inheritance), while Elizabeth is of lower social standing and marries a man of great wealth and social standing (Mr. Darcy).
Narration Style:
Jane Austen uses free indirect discourse in both of these novels, along with a lot of irony and satire. In my opinion, PP's featured more dialogue which expressed a lot of irony through witty remarks from some of the more sensible characters. I think Austen expressed irony through her narration more in Per, which seemed to be more blunt and sometimes even cruel.
Group: Blargh Sorry I don't remember everyones names. But it's me and everyone else whos left.
Here's our list of actors
Sir Walter Elliot-James Franco
William Elliot-Ryan Philippe
Elizabeth Elliot-Natalie Portman
Anne Elliot-Rachel McAdams
Mary Elliot-Reese Witherspoon
Charles Musgrove- Leonardo Dicaprio
Mr. Musgrove- Liam Neeson
Mrs. Musgrove-Imelda Staunton
Louisa Musgrove-Kirsten Dunst
Henrietta Musgrove-Katie Holmes
Charles Hayter-James Masden
Captain Wentworth-Orlando Bloom
Admiral Croft-Sean Bean
Mrs. Croft-Hilary Swank
Captain Benwick-Ryan Gosling
Mr. Harville- Christian Bale
Mrs. Harville-Naomi Watts
Lady Russell- Renee Zellweger
Mrs. Clay-Scarlett Johanson
Mrs. Smith-Nicole Kidman
We feel these actors/actresses fit their roles pretty well.
In terms of actors and actresses that don't fit the roles, we had trouble coming up with a list of people that "potentially" could be good but would actually be bad. We feel that the only reason an actor shouldn't be in this movie would be if they don't have the acting experience or the ability to act in a serious drama.
Kate/Kiyomi/Christine... the point about independence is an interesting one, but I don't think it's fair to say that Austen reduces independence (or happiness) to financial security. Perhaps it could be said that she considers this a sort of minimum condition that is necessary for mental independence, etc. She's practical that way, but then again so is Aristotle... he thinks that your vegetable and needs have to be minimally satisfied before you are able to reason.
A similar defense could be made of your idea about being persuaded or pushed around... isn't it the case that Austen is showing us that Anne will only actualize her arete when she becomes somewhat more assertive? So clearly Austen has given it some thought; you can't blame her for Anne's limitations... she created them. On the other hand, perhaps you could say that Austen gives you a more practical, detailed account of the social embeddedness of arete in a certain time and place.
A much more glaring difference is their evaluation of women's intellectual capabilities.
Hannah/Ariana/Shae... I question your use of the term "gold-digging" to describe Elizabeth, given the distinction we've drawn between status-based aristocratic values and money-based bourgeois values.
Your other observations will be very helpful to anyone who has read Pride and Prejudice, which is most of you.
Oh, and as to Anne being deceived, notice that she is much LESS deceived than other Austen characters, no doubt a consequence of her longer life experience. Ariana's post somewhat addresses this.
Back to the connexions, as I only commented on the latter half of the post.
I think you're really onto something with the idea that there are different sorts of connexions... in particular the aristocratic extended family connexions vs. the naval "family" and its connexions.
The cast list... that's all? Can you guys at least explain to us your rationale for casting the major roles?
I mean, some of your choices are, uh, dubious. James Franco is the father of Rachel McAdams, Reese Witherspoon, and Natalie Portman? Is he even older than them? Scarlett Johannsenn - according to FHM and Esquire magazines, the "sexiest woman alive" - is the mediocre Ms. Clay? Dicaprio, he of the intense method acting and the shaky hands, is the super-casual Charles?
I'm just giving you a hard time... some of the other ones seem insightful, like the Dunst/Holmes duo and the melodrama king Gosling as Benwick.
It doesn't matter so much that I disagree, but the point is that you need to justify your choices in order for us to know whether we really agree or disagree with them and why.
Jie/Jeff/Rosemary... excellent point about the seasons, though notice that we don't actually get spring in the novel, only the implication of a spring to come. How might this mirror the social/political developments in the novel as well as the emotional ones.
Also I asked you guys to think about the Bath setting, so maybe somebody can post that.
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